Hetalia discord misadventures

[yuuago]

I received a message on tumblr inviting me to a 21+ Hetalia Nordic-centric discord server. This was unexpected, but initially I was pleasantly surprised.


The person who sent it said that they were familiar with my fanfic and enjoyed my work a lot. ...This person had never interacted with me before, so I was very surprised about that. But that isn't a big deal (who knows, maybe they don't have an Ao3 account), and even though it was unusual, I felt pretty flattered. So, I decided to give it a try.

Immediately, I knew that I wouldn't stay. The vibe was just not my thing - very meme-y, simultaneously flippant and super-serious, very tumblr-style way of engaging in fandom. But in addition to that, the rules were lacking on the canon-specific front. The only thing they had about content was "no pedophilic content". Which... uh.

Whenever I consider joining a Hetalia-specific discord server or fan event, I take a look at the canon-specific rules. Hetalia is a weird case, since the characters are literally countries. You have situations where some characters are canonically related (Norway and Iceland), but also cases where characters are considered related by some people in fandom even though it's explicitly not canon, due to the historical/cultural/linguistic relationship (Denmark and Iceland, or Finland and Estonia). There are characters that look ambiguously aged - again, Iceland - and at one point Himaruya put a list of "human ages" on his blog or something and Iceland was listed as 16. But some people such as myself consider blog notes and whatnot optional or noncanonical, especially when that material is old, lost, deleted, or nonsensical.

Look me in the eyes and say "The Republic of Iceland is sixteen years old". We can have a laugh over it.

The server owner seemed friendly and open to feedback, so I brought the subject up in private. I said that since canon is ambiguous and headcanons differ, it can be helpful to be very clear about canon-specific rules, because otherwise people might be unsure about what kind of content (headcanons, fic recs, etc) is allowed in the server. She got what I meant, and said she'd give some thought to putting a rule down.

I took a look today, and a rule has been added banning "Incestuous ships like Den/Ice", and restating a ban against "Pedophilic content". I left immediately.

How hard is it to say "No NSFW content for Iceland pairings", for the love of -

[/folds arms, stares at the ceiling, sighs]

I'd like to be clear: this isn't about disallowing certain pairings or certain ratings. It isn't even about Iceland; he isn't my favourite character, and I don't post about him that often. I prefer servers where pairings with the ambiguous characters are allowed, including 18+ material, but it's fine for someone to set limits on which pairings and ratings can be posted on their own server, and I can deal with that.

But. 'Pedophilic content'. After I had that conversation with her, and phrased it myself as "18+ content about Iceland".

This is a person who claims to be familiar with my fanfic, and specifically invited me because she said she likes my work. But it's no secret that I occasionally write R-18 fic involving Iceland. You don't have to search to see it. In the Hetalia fics on my Ao3, the 4th one down is an incestuous double penetration smutfest with Iceland right in the centre of it.

I would never expect anyone to read all my work. But if someone says that I'm one of their favourite fic authors, like this person did, then I would expect them to know what kind of material I usually write.

When I saw that "clarification" about "pedophilia", I wanted to say, "Just what exactly do you think of me?" But I didn't. Because I just couldn't think of a way to ask about it. And I don't know if I actually want an answer to that.

So. Now I just feel bad. And sad. Like, initially I was thinking "Okay, I'm not sure about this, but maybe I'll find some new people to talk to here. That'd be nice". But now I feel sad, and... tricked, even though that isn't what happened. There's a small paranoid part of me deep down that wonders if this was some kind of trap, even though I'm pretty sure that it actually wasn't.

This person was probably just clueless, but damn, do I ever feel like ass.

No more new servers for me. I'll stick exclusively to Hetalia Olds from now on, unless the invite comes from somebody I know.

Comments

[slashmarks]

I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, but I would guess that person was malicious, not clueless. The belief that writing porn about underage characters (like, sixteen year old characters, even) is a sign you're a "pedophile" has been spreading in certain corners of fandom lately, often in conjunction with pointlessly convoluted bullying and harassment tactics. It honestly reminds me - on a thankfully lower scale so far - of Satanic Panic stuff, and people choosing to believe accusations they know are absurd:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2008/09/08/false-witnesses/
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2008/10/08/false-witnesses-2/

Which is to say, leaving ASAP was probably the right choice.

[yuuago]

It's possible that you're right. I've seen that kind of thing before. In most of the cases where I've encountered it, there's usually this kind of... undercurrent of something going on, though. And I didn't notice anything like that in this case, which is partly why I was so blindsided and upset. Not to mention that this seems like an awfully convoluted way to harass someone. (Most people just send nasty PMs, geeze!)

Fandom can be so frustrating and shitty sometimes. Not that it's anything new, but this angle of it is something that I find challenging.

[slashmarks]

Yeah, I mean - I think in many cases they're basically imitating other people who are better established, or more popular, or older in the case where they're young teens, but I'm not sure I'd say that really makes it different? Because at its heart this hysteria is all about imitating the in group who pretend to believe the lie, and I think groups can often move rapidly between levels of investment.

ETA: Meant to say, I don't know that they're targeting you per se, I'd guess that this person just uses that "I really like your fic!" line on everyone they know is a Hetalia writer, and maybe did read one of your recent fics so it wasn't technically a lie, lol.

[allekha]

Wow, that sucks. Sorry to hear that it happened to you :(

The current hysteria about 'pedo' content about fictional characters is so frustrating, especially when it's often phrased in these vague terms, like it should be obvious what the bad ships for bad people are. (I passed on a YOI exchange last month that banned unspecified 'age gaps' and required that OtaYuri - other Yuri ships don't exist I guess - had to be aged up, I assume to where Yuri is 18, although that wasn't specified either. No thank you.) Especially in a case like Hetalia where physical/mental ages are up to interpretation and don't match their real ages, and where family relationships are weird and also up to interpretation, people really really should be more specific. And less judgemental. But at least specific.

[yuuago]

people really really should be more specific. And less judgemental. But at least specific.

<3
More specific would definitely be helpful. But apparently not.

Sigh @ that YoI exchange, too. Kind of funny that the only pairing that had to be aged up was OtaYuri, considering that definitely isn't the only pairing with one of the characters under 18, but I guess the others are so rare that it might not be thought of to mention. Either way, immensely frustrating.

[seerofrage]

That's so upsetting, sorry you had to deal with that. ):

Running into those types of spaces can be so frustrating and unpleasant, and I don't blame you for sticking to your old hangouts. May you have more pleasant experiences in your corner of fandom, away from whatever they've got going on. ;v;

[yuuago]

<3

Thanks, mate. It was just such a frankly shocking experience, and I just didn't know what to do with myself. Luckily, today was better. (And I guess now I know to be more careful in the future. ?!)

[hokuton_punch]

Ohhhhhhh, no. A bullet has been dodged! D: But how awkward. I'm so sorry.

[yuuago]

<3 <3

Definitely goes on the list of "stuff I didn't expect to happen"....

[eggsbenedict]

I agree with other commenters, I'd lean towards that person acting out of malice. The current crop of antis really see other people's taste as something to be "fixed" and works that don't meet their arbitrary rules to be erased, which is just really upsetting. :/ Don't blame yourself, and it looks like you dodged a bullet by getting out of there!

[yuuago]

Not going to lie, this is going to make me wary of unfamiliar people in the future. And I don't particularly like that. But it looks like it's going to be necessary.

[gramarye1971]

I keep thinking about joining Hetalia Olds, but I feel like I don't spend enough time on Discord to make it worthwhile. Is it a particularly busy server?

[yuuago]

I'm not in many servers, so I don't have much to compare it to. It does get messages every day, but it doesn't take me much time to backread them all, aside from the occasional long conversation. There's a bit more Hetalia-specific activity on days when translations are posted.

Generally I feel like there's enough to keep my interest without feeling smothered.

[wickedlittletown]

Really sorry to read about this. It's always sad when you end up in a fandom-circle where you know you're not comfortable with.

I am in a few discord servers as well but I only have one where I feel more or less "at home" in an online-home way. The others are kinda okayish and I lurk there for most of the time and snatch stuff.

I feel you especially on the rules point. Some server have silly rules that makes you just go "Why? This is ridiculous"
But then ... I simply suspect I am too old for most fandom circles nowadays.

Personally I am not a fan of all these meme-way of interacting, gif and emoji heavy conversations in most servers, which is why I am very selective of which server I join or not. I have joined so many and left most within a couple of days (some have so much unnecessary drama).

I miss the days when tumblr was the place to go and you could have serious conversations with a fellow fandom member without receiving just a gif as answer.

When it comes to fandoms I try to dust off my journal on here and for the rest of more serious interactions about various topics I use reddit (I know this site gets hate as well but for example the writing subreddts there are really nice and I have had many great conversations there.)


Oh and from where does this sudden "pedo-art" fuzz comes from? I have seen / read about it in other fandoms as well but not in deep since most of the times I just rolled my eyes and scrolled over the post.
I have to admit I am always guilty of loving all these "problematic" ships and I'm kinda glad I somewhat drifted away from being active in some fandoms because I know I would have attracted way too many hater and fandom-police people.

[yuuago]

Yeah, the meme-y way of doing fandom reaaally isn't my thing. Partly it's that I prefer text-based discussion, but also a lot of the humour really isn't my thing. I end up sitting there thinking, "I don't understand why the thing this person posted is supposed to be funny."

And that's okay! A lot of people have difference preferences than I do, and that's fine, but... sometimes it's a little frustrating that it's so hard to find a place that's a good fit. '3'

[wickedlittletown]

Same here. You speak from the bottom of my heart. That is why I try my best to return to this place, even I know I have some obscure fandoms, so it might be hard / impossible to find someone to interact with.

My first fandom connections online were made through a anime/manga site which was having a very active forum and blog section so text base was the way to go. And maybe because I am a writer I am so fond of words and wish people would stop having this way of using as little words as possible.

Sure, I love meme myself and some can strive up a good convo but at the end of the day I want to read an opinion. To me text based convos are more like having the feeling I am talking with someone about something. In Real Life we don't draw emojis (can't stand them anyway - besides a few exceptions and I tend to use them seldom anyway) on a piece of paper and show it to the one we are talking with.

Current biggest fandom obsession is Chernobyl (the series along with the real event). If the convo calls for it I can brush off many old fandom-loves as well. Still fond of a lot of musicals and some animes as well. It is just that I don't list them all in interests on here, since I always assume people will think I am still up to date with most, which is not the case.

I know that myself. See, I don't really like most AUs (especially high school and stuff in that way) and prefer a more realistic way of writing my stories but that doesn't seem to be appreciated from most people in fandoms.
My writings are either super realistic and done with a lot of research or full of kinks. But I don't post the super kinky stuff.

[(Anonymous)]

Hello, friends. I am the server owner in question. I will not disclose how this particular post came to my attention, nor will I reveal my identity. That being said, I feel as though there are some misconceptions and misunderstandings written in this entry that need to be cleared up. Yuuago, you were not "entrapped" nor "tricked." I had discovered your works via recommendation links on other Hetalia Discord servers, and I had followed your fandom blog long before approaching you. Yes, I have an account on AO3, but I've only used it so far to read and bookmark my favorite fanfics, hence my anonymity on there. I haven't posted my own works there yet, since I still prefer to use fanfiction.net. What can I say? I'm old-fashioned. *shrug*

Anyway, Yuuago, I am not offended, angry, or upset regarding your critique of my server. We all have our preferences when it comes to Discord servers, blogs to follow, etc., and that's valid. What I am offended and upset about, however, is you putting words in my mouth and playing semantics. Let's break this down:

To clarify, I will respond to your points by copying and pasting some of them with {{ }} around them.

{{There are characters that look ambiguously aged - again, Iceland - and at one point Himaruya put a list of "human ages" on his blog or something and Iceland was listed as 16. But some people such as myself consider blog notes and whatnot optional or noncanonical, especially when that material is old, lost, deleted, or nonsensical.}}

Which is fine! Everybody in every fandom ever has their own unique fanon interpretations of canon content and characters. Some fanon interpretations are more or less popular and accepted fandom-wide than others, but they're all valid nonetheless. That being said, others in the fandom space reserve the right to respectfully "agree to disagree" too. Which brings me to some of your other points...

{{I took a look today, and a rule has been added banning "Incestuous ships like Den/Ice", and restating a ban against "Pedophilic content". I left immediately.

How hard is it to say "No NSFW content for Iceland pairings", for the love of -

But. 'Pedophilic content'. After I had that conversation with her, and phrased it myself as "18+ content about Iceland".}}

I NEVER phrased it like that. I know very well that Denmark and Iceland are not related; again, please don't put words in my mouth. The rule I added at the time applied only to pedophilic pairings, not incest (at least not underage or non-consensual incest). I agreed with you 100%, and my rule was phrased similarly to how you just phrased it. I never meant to imply in my rule that content or fanworks portraying incest between consenting adults was prohibited. In my Nordic server for all ages, yes, but this was my 21+ server. I generally abide by the "kink tomato" adage, but I draw the line at pedophilia. Or, as you stated, 18+ content with characters who are minors. Both of which mean the same, in my opinion. If this is just a matter of semantics, then I'm sorry?

{{This is a person who claims to be familiar with my fanfic, and specifically invited me because she said she likes my work. But it's no secret that I occasionally write R-18 fic involving Iceland.

...

I would never expect anyone to read all my work. But if someone says that I'm one of their favourite fic authors, like this person did, then I would expect them to know what kind of material I usually write.}}

Well, yes... I already knew. I saw those fics and simply chose to ignore them by using AO3's filter to exclude them, and instead read your fanfics featuring the adult Nordics. I never claimed to be super familiar with your works, just that I had discovered you and your fics via rec links in other Hetalia servers and liked what I found. I read and enjoyed what I found interesting, and chose to ignore/filter out the tags and pairings on your other fics that I didn't like. I'm of the opinion that as long as fanworks are properly tagged, labeled, and given any necessary trigger warnings, then that's all that matters. For heaven's sake, I follow two content creators on my fandom blog (one of which is a close friend) who draw NorIce on occasion. But I love their other Hetalia content, and they age Iceland up in addition to using proper tagging, so I still choose to follow and be friends with them. I just blacklisted the tag instead.

{{When I saw that "clarification" about "pedophilia", I wanted to say, "Just what exactly do you think of me?" But I didn't. Because I just couldn't think of a way to ask about it. And I don't know if I actually want an answer to that.

So. Now I just feel bad. And sad.}}

I'm so sorry. It was never my intention to make you feel that way. For what it's worth, I didn't think badly of you at the time. And I don't now. Far from it. In fact, this was around the time I became friends with the aforementioned NorIce fanartist. And since I already knew that you were responsible with your tagging, I respected that. I actually wish you had asked me that and voiced those feelings to me. We're both adults and could have discussed it. And if it also makes you feel any better, I would never have banned you if you had posted your fanfics in my server either. I would have also protected you from potential harassment. Above all, I would have wanted to remain your friend in any case.

[yuuago]

I had followed your fandom blog long before approaching you.

I hope you aren't still following me.

The rule I added at the time applied only to pedophilic pairings

Again, you need to define this more specifically in your rules. As phrased, it's too vague, because of the nature of canon. It needs to be expressly stated: Which characters this applies to, and that it applies to works where they are explicitly stated to look like children. Otherwise, it scoops up literally every work featuring young-looking characters like Iceland, even works where the age is ambiguous or unspecified.

Describing pairings as "pedophilic" makes it sound like you think people who ship those characters would harm real children. I can not state this strongly enough.

Above all, I would have wanted to remain your friend in any case.

We were never friends at any point, because I didn't know you, and I still don't. You were and still are a complete stranger.

[(Anonymous)]

You're...not really engaging with my post or even trying to understand my points. At all. I don't have time or energy to play semantics, though. I think it's very clear and very straightforward what a pedophilic pairing is: a pairing between an actual minor and an adult character. I never insinuated or implied that anybody was a pedophile, least of all you.

Anyway, I wrote this as an apology for making you feel bad and to extend a laurel leaf. I tried to be kind, and if I didn't think lowly of you then, I do now. This attitude and behavior towards me is unacceptable.

If you want me to unfollow you, then fine. I don't owe you my follow, nor do I owe you an unfollow just because you want me to. You just come off as rather rude and stuck up.

[yuuago]

Please unfollow me on all applicable platforms. Do not contact me again in any context.