Ao3/OTW/WTF

[yuuago]

I was putting together a short list of links for a friend re: the recent conversations about Ao3's structural problems, but it was getting a little long for a PM on the service we were using, so I copied it over here. Most of you on the FList have already seen these, I think.



General info

Recap/summary of what has happened in the past... two weeks, as of yesterday (May 31):

https://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/597086.html?thread=3656906846#cmt3656906846

Synonymous has also summaries of the main points + copypastes from important developments (General/ongoing):

https://synonymous.dreamwidth.org/

Other info:

If you haven't read chestnut_pod's essay (May 20), I recommend doing so - it's partly what caused a lot of the issues to come to the surface. Basically it discusses issues with how racism in particular and harassment in general are handled on Ao3 and how structural issues in the OTW make it harder to implement useful ways to deal with it. The comments lead to the other topics - the abuse of volunteers and negligence re: best practices for protecting volunteers.

https://chestnut-pod.dreamwidth.org/141175.html

Discussion on what to do about this:

Synecdochic (co-owner/founder of Dreamwidth) recommends that Ao3/OTW volunteers quit, because the structural problems can't be fixed. (May 30)

https://synecdochic.dreamwidth.org/796944.html

Another suggestion is to send letters to the Board of OTW that Legal should be dissolved and/or the Board should resign. (May 31)

https://muccamukk.dreamwidth.org/1581750.html

Others are suggesting bringing the subject up at public OTW board meetings, asking how they will deal with the current issues. (May 30)

https://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/596934.html?thread=3656282310#cmt3656282310

Additional discussion re: upcoming OTW election (several positions are open) and whether it would be possible to run on a platform of reform. (May 31)

https://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/596934.html?thread=3656473798#cmt3656473798

I think that's the main issues covered. I might have missed some things under "what to do next", but I think I managed to catch the main suggestions. Part of the problem is that a lot of the issues are solvable, but can't (apparently) be solved under the current Board and Legal teams. By the look of it.

I've also seen a lot of discussion about where to go in terms of other archives (short answer: there isn't any good 1:1 equivalent to Ao3 right now), and some people want to make their own, but that seems to be spitballing; I'm unsure whether any of those projects will get off the ground.

Comments

[hokuton_punch]

This is a great round-up, thank you! I've just been following along and boggling and boggling, trying to figure out what to do... (Besides put about five years' backlog of fic onto brief_transit and take up proper crossposting again/switch to posting only there.)

It's just - damn. DAMN. I half want to donate so I can vote in the upcoming elections, but also - would it do any good, and I don't want to throw good money after bad...

[yuuago]

I've been reading it off and on for a few days. It's crazy. Like when you think a wall just needs to be cleaned and painted, but when you actually look at it closely you realize you've got a mould problem on your hands. And asbestos. Or something.

(Man, am I ever glad that I uploaded everything at roesslyng ages ago... Good luck with your crossposting.)

I think a lot of people are in the same position you are re: "throwing good money after bad". Considering the Legal team seems to be a big part of the problem, would voting in the upcoming election even help this particular issue, even if reform-minded people were running? I honestly don't know.

[muccamukk]

I'm advocating for doing all of those at once, lol.

What a mess.

[yuuago]

All at once sounds ideal.

Or throw Legal and the Board into the sun.

It's an absolute trashfire. On the one hand, it's interesting, because I find discussion of structural problems and how to solve them interesting. But on the other hand, some of the stuff that's happened is absolutely horrible/vile, and also, the rot is coming from inside the house, augh.

[muccamukk]

Yeah, this would be a much more fun wank to popcorn if it weren't OUR archive. Also yeah so much gross shit happening.

I'm somewhat in favour of paying $10 in order to be able to vote, but the cut off isn't until 30 June, so there's lots of time to think about it. Possibly middle class bias, but it's not *that* much money, certainly not in terms of what OTW pulls in every year.

I think the bigger problem is spreading the word outside of the OTW Inside Baseball Fandom community.

[yuuago]

I think I'd have a much easier time deciding what to do re: voting if Legal resigned. Like, all of them. Tomorrow. (But considering the information we have, I think that's unlikely.)

I think the bigger problem is spreading the word outside of the OTW Inside Baseball Fandom community.

You have a good point there. It's hard to describe the problems in a concise way (because there's so much) and also, it's necessary to have... reach. I've seen mention of people talking about this on tumblr, but it's so easy for conversations to get derailed and misunderstood there. orz

[muccamukk]

I think the chances of Legal resigning are about 2%. The whole problem is they don't want to cede power! However, I do think the board can force them out, so the election potentially affects that. (I'd already got a membership this year, so it wasn't a choice for me.)

I'm not on tumblr, but I've seen a couple people talking about it there. It's getting very little traction though.

[yuuago]

Yeah, no kidding. If only they would do the right thing! But that's sure not going to happen. Hopefully the Board will give them the boot, but I don't know how likely that is, either.

[ireneultramarine]

Thank you for gathering all of this. From afar it merely looked like a pipe leak, then you look closer and the entire basement is flooded and the house is gonna collapse. Then you can't even be detached from the situation and watch the drama unfold because AO3 has been such a part of everyone's fandom experience. The structural issues are...wow, what in god's name is that mess. You would think they should have a functional structure at this scale and this importance. Apparently not...

Re: the entire legal situation: WHAT IN HELL'S NAME WERE THEY TRYING TO PULL OFF??

I'm feeling really emotional about what's going down at Weibo right now— AO3 has been the last safe haven untouched by Chinese censorship before it got walled, and after it went down, for months the Chinese AO3 volunteers running the account still advocated for freedom of expression and for the protection of its volunteers and users. It has been such a space for safe expression, for Chinese fanreaders to read beyond the wall, and else. For OTW to just abandon the Weibo account like this is so...disheartening. I think I might cry but there's just too much going on at once to process.

[yuuago]

Yeah, that's about the half of it, eh.

The Weibo stuff has me scratching my head. I just plain don't understand why the OTW wants to close the account. The reason they gave (according to what was posted on FFA) doesn't make sense to me. As long as the Chinese volunteers running it want to continue running it, what on earth is the problem?

It sounds like you might know more about that situation than I do, since I only read the FFA threads - discussion about it has been sparse (partly due to the small amount of C-fandom/E-fandom crossover there, and also because it's getting overshadowed by, uh, all the other stuff.)

[ireneultramarine]

I haven't been active on Chinese internet for a good while, so I don't know what Chinese netizens feel about the weibo situation or how much traction it's getting on the Chinese front lmao.

I do know that for a lot of reasons (the censorship situation in China is...weird) AO3 has been considered a special space in the Chinese fandoms, perhaps held in even higher regard than in the Anglophone fandoms. If the Chinese volunteers are already running the OTW account out of their own time and resources, and at risk of getting doxxed+arrested+else (see also: censorship situation), why would OTW just raze their efforts to the ground like this?

The Chinese volunteers are absolutely right that the board's decision is "xenophobic and racist" lmao, no shit. I've encountered quite a few incidences, even just in the Hetalia fandom, where people have said Things or did Things to me or other Chinese people solely for being Chinese, so at this point my expectation for the Anglophone internet is not particularly high right now, and I'm not surprised to see some of those accepted attitudes reflected in this organization's actions. I still feel deeply dismayed tho.

[yuuago]

Re-reading through the discussion, the bit about the Communications Chairs having trouble with language barrier seems increasingly more ridiculous (and also xenophobic and racist). I don't know how Ao3 chairs are appointed, but surely there's someone on the Chinese-speaking volunteer team who would be interested in being in Communications. This seems like such a solvable problem. (AS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE ugh)

Ao3's organization unfortunately has had a weird attitude toward non-English fandoms in general, and Asian stuff in particular, ever since like... the beginning, really, so this is nothing new but the fact that they're treating their Chinese volunteers like this is absolutely galling.

re: Hetalia fandom, I'm so sorry that happened to you (& the others you mention). That's absolutely garbage. Though I can't say it surprises me.
<3

[ireneultramarine]

The "language barrier" card is so insane because they aren't even hiding that they aren't trying. Which is something I've encountered a lot in North America in general, where organizations would rather cut off resources for everyone who doesn't prefer to use English than finding a half-good translator, not even for "popular" languages like Spanish or Chinese. Just because it's a society-wide issue doesn't make it excusable tho especially when AO3 was the last place on the internet where Chinese people could access legally, write whatever, and not get arrested for the things they write. (Both self-publishing and writing smut are illegal in China and people have been arrested for both, especially in the past 5 years.) Considering how the Chinese volunteers are literally risking their lives, just how ungrateful is this organization?

[yuuago]

Man, I knew that writing smut was illegal, but I had no idea about self-publishing. D:

just how ungrateful is this organization?

Exponentially, apparently. The more I think about this, the worse it gets.

[dhampyresa]

This is all A Lot.

[yuuago]

No kidding. :(

[allekha]

Thanks for pulling these links together. It's been a... thing to watch this unfold. I've had problems with AO3 and OTW since before I finally made an account there, but it's all tiny potatoes in comparison to the unacceptable way they've treated their Chinese volunteers and put their safety at risk with no warning, or everything about the azarias situation and how Legal has been acting.

[yuuago]

It's one thing after another, man.

A part of me still has hope that the situation can improve (Board boots Legal, better tools/system added for PAC, addresses the awful way they've been treating their Chinese volunteers, etc) but there's the sticking point of "this is theoretically possible" vs "Is this likely to happen". :| :/